We hardly need Old Hungarian compact UI font

[ghost]

We hardly need Old Hungarian compact font strictly use the only required Old Hungarian symbols described in chart
Old Hungarian standard
Ligatures aren't requirements for Old Hungarian texts, those are only possibilities, these are ignorable in UI font.

[ghost]

@marekjez86 Marek, this issue description is already correct?

[ghost]

@google-admin It's the time of that, leaders of Google's noto fonts project to decide, they really require the several ligatures, developed already. There are basic lugatures, that aren't developed yet. For example exists ligature "el", but "él" ("he/she lives") ligature doesn't exist. The combinations of ligatures depends on the imagination of user. Somebody wrote me, that he planned 60 ligatures, somebody wrote me, that he has about 300 ligature-plan.
The ligatures, as @Kixidevel wrote, are only possibility, not requirements in Old Hungarian scripts.
That I wrote it,that is not our passion. The fonts are made for Android and Chrome OS, aren't it?
The Apple already developed their own Old Hungarian font for IPhone, I got a message about it few days ago. It uses right-to-left direction only, and it doesn't use ligatures at all.

[ghost]

@google-admin There is a must, to upload a picture of IPhone's Old Hungarian font capability, or belive me this fact, that I wrote in my previous comment?
Please, answer to me!

[ghost]

@google-admin However, in NotoSansOldHungarian-Regular font exist "x", "w", "qu" letter-like ligatures for foreign words, "y" missing, which are used by several small groups.
Géza Ferenci historian, archeologist, museum director wrote, we must talking about historic Old Hungarian text until 1802. year.
Until 1802 in the Old Hungarian (or Sekler-Hungarian) texts weren't used ligatures "x", "qu", and weren't used letter "y" and "w".
The Unicode standard Old Hungarian letters was determined connected to his words, too.
The only standard forms of Old Hungarian letters downloadable from page http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U10C80.pdf, as I wrote before in an another issue.

[ghost]

@marekjez86 @google-admin Foreign letters replaceable "w" to"v", "x" to "k"+"sz" , (sz Hungarian letter sounds as English s) "qu" to "k"+"v", "y" to "j" or "i" ( replacement of "y" depends on word) as LibreOffice's Latin based Hungarian to Old Hungarian translator do!

That I would like to tell with this explanation is that, Old Hungarian texts don't require ligatures.

[ghost]

@Kixidevel You broke my account

[ghost]

@Kixidevel You write a comment before, that's I removed already! Don't do it on the future. It seems, it was only one comment. I changed my password . Your action suggest for all user, you wrote all comments. I collected documents, which are important evidences about that, there wasn't used diacritics in historic Old Hungarian scripts.

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 I just saw this issue, I will resolve it quickly

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86
The final UFO style source merge request is:
notofonts/noto-source#306
Merge it, please!

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86
Something wrong with pull request notofonts/noto-source#306 ?

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 May I ask you, that sign this issue with label "UI compact" ?

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 I'm sorry, I must to close the pull request, because:
1st The small letters wasn't on the same baseline, as capital ones.
2nd The size parameters wasn't compatible with main Noto Sans font's parameters.
The 1st problem already resolved. Just a few day, I'll resolve the size parameters' problem.
@marekjez86 Is it all right?

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 There are a pull request notofonts/noto-source#324 which size-compatible with original Noto-Sans font, and the small letters' baseline same as capital letters' baseline. The pull request is an implementation of Old Hungarian UI-version font. (This hasn't got optional ligatures) This pull request has LTR-form letter-forms, too.
Here are the testcases:
Unicode chart-style testcase in 18pt on LibreOffice:

Testcases mixed with Latin letters in 12pt, for Latin letters are used Noto-Sans font. (12pt on LibreOffice):

I hope, You can merge the PR in the near future.
We waiting for it.
Have a nice weekend, and Happy New Year!

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 May I ask you to add "UI conoact" label to this issue? Thanks

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 Sorry, I thought about "UI compact" label

[marekjez86]

I went through many steps of fixing like below marekj-macbookpro5% ./build src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs INFO:fontmake.font_project:Building master UFOs and designspace from Glyphs source INFO:glyphsLib.classes:Parsing "src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs" file into <GSFont> INFO:fontmake.font_project:Interpolating master UFOs from designspace INFO:fontmake.font_project:Generating instance UFO for "NotoSansOldHungarianUI Regular" INFO:fontmake.font_project:Building OTF for NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular INFO:ufo2ft:Pre-processing glyphs INFO:ufo2ft.filters:Running DecomposeComponentsFilter on NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular INFO:ufo2ft.filters:Running RemoveOverlapsFilter on NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular ERROR:ufo2ft.filters.removeOverlaps:Failed to remove overlaps for *uni10C9B.ltr* fontmake: Error: In 'src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs' -> 'master_ufo/NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular.designspace' -> 'instance_ufo/NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular.ufo': Compiling UFO failed: ('Trying to perform operation on unsupported segment type.', 'qcurve') I fixed uni10C9B.ltr then I tried again and... marekj-macbookpro5% ./build src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs INFO:fontmake.font_project:Building master UFOs and designspace from Glyphs source INFO:glyphsLib.classes:Parsing "src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs" file into <GSFont> INFO:fontmake.font_project:Interpolating master UFOs from designspace INFO:fontmake.font_project:Generating instance UFO for "NotoSansOldHungarianUI Regular" INFO:fontmake.font_project:Building OTF for NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular INFO:ufo2ft:Pre-processing glyphs INFO:ufo2ft.filters:Running DecomposeComponentsFilter on NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular INFO:ufo2ft.filters:Running RemoveOverlapsFilter on NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular ERROR:ufo2ft.filters.removeOverlaps:Failed to remove overlaps for *uni10C9B.ltr* fontmake: Error: In 'src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs' -> 'master_ufo/NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular.designspace' -> 'instance_ufo/NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular.ufo': Compiling UFO failed: ('Trying to perform operation on unsupported segment type.', 'qcurve') uni10C9B.ltr has a problem that I need to fix ... I think there are about 15-20 glyphs that need fixing. Besides this there are some design issues that need to get reviewed once we build the font

…

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 2:50 AM tamasbartos ***@***.***> wrote: @marekjez86 <https://github.com/marekjez86> Sorry, I thought about "UI compact" label — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1924 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADFUS73EHYIAJ5LS4KPJRV3SYBDV5ANCNFSM4UICLFEQ> .

[tamasbartos]

I went through many steps of fixing like below marekj-macbookpro5% ./build src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs INFO:fontmake.font_project:Building master UFOs and designspace from Glyphs source INFO:glyphsLib.classes:Parsing "src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs" file into INFO:fontmake.font_project:Interpolating master UFOs from designspace INFO:fontmake.font_project:Generating instance UFO for "NotoSansOldHungarianUI Regular" INFO:fontmake.font_project:Building OTF for NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular INFO:ufo2ft:Pre-processing glyphs INFO:ufo2ft.filters:Running DecomposeComponentsFilter on NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular INFO:ufo2ft.filters:Running RemoveOverlapsFilter on NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular ERROR:ufo2ft.filters.removeOverlaps:Failed to remove overlaps for uni10C9B.ltr fontmake: Error: In 'src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs' -> 'master_ufo/NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular.designspace' -> 'instance_ufo/NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular.ufo': Compiling UFO failed: ('Trying to perform operation on unsupported segment type.', 'qcurve') I fixed uni10C9B.ltr then I tried again and... marekj-macbookpro5% ./build src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs INFO:fontmake.font_project:Building master UFOs and designspace from Glyphs source INFO:glyphsLib.classes:Parsing "src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs" file into INFO:fontmake.font_project:Interpolating master UFOs from designspace INFO:fontmake.font_project:Generating instance UFO for "NotoSansOldHungarianUI Regular" INFO:fontmake.font_project:Building OTF for NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular INFO:ufo2ft:Pre-processing glyphs INFO:ufo2ft.filters:Running DecomposeComponentsFilter on NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular INFO:ufo2ft.filters:Running RemoveOverlapsFilter on NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular ERROR:ufo2ft.filters.removeOverlaps:Failed to remove overlaps for uni10C9B.ltr fontmake: Error: In 'src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI.glyphs' -> 'master_ufo/NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular.designspace' -> 'instance_ufo/NotoSansOldHungarianUI-Regular.ufo': Compiling UFO failed: ('Trying to perform operation on unsupported segment type.', 'qcurve') uni10C9B.ltr has a problem that I need to fix ... I think there are about 15-20 glyphs that need fixing. Besides this there are some design issues that need to get reviewed once we build the font
…
On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 2:50 AM tamasbartos @.***> wrote: @marekjez86 https://github.com/marekjez86 Sorry, I thought about "UI compact" label — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#1924 (comment)>, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADFUS73EHYIAJ5LS4KPJRV3SYBDV5ANCNFSM4UICLFEQ .

Thank You!
I worked with a font editor, and when I try to build this font, it made tff only. I tought that's normal.
I understood well, that you will fix it?

[tamasbartos]

Besides this there are some design issues that need to get reviewed once we build the font

Marek, I hope, you don't think about issue #1374 .Please read the following carefully.
You reopened with comment #1374 (comment)
The real standard is Old Hungarian script part of the Unicode
The real standard character forms Old Hungarian symbols in Unicode standard
You can not read about accents or duplication mark in these documents.
The document L2/11-242R was born because of that, somebody submitted a request to UNICODE without prior consultation. It was ignored.

With issue #1374 somebodies are trying to repeal the convention again about Unicode standard, that during the standardization they failed.
The reason of that they failed, they don't want to use correct historic rules, for example on the wooden sticks weren't space for accents or duplication marks. The introduction of accents is a form of Latinization.
In the document preferred by @dscorbett is an example of the Latinization: the Old Hungarian letter "o" replaced with triangle, which has very similar form of the Latin letter "o".

Unfortunately you don't read/speak in Hungarian language. If you could read, I would give for you links about the history of standardization, you could read about congresses in city Gödöllő, in city Solt, and why these congresses were convened. The length of the documents about congresses too long to translate and write down in one comment.

There are users already know about this issue. The reason of that they didn't protest yet, most of them don't speak English, and because of the COVID19, they can not convene a congress again. In Hungary only ten people can attend gatherings according to COVID19 regulations. There are much more users of Old Hungarian script than ten. I can't list them all.

My suggestion is simple: please follow the Unicode standards.

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 Marek,
That I do not talk into the air, here is a page about the events following the Gödöllő Congress (2008)
Article on Congress and standardization process

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 The final decision in Solt city about standard doesn't have any ligatures, just only several historic signs, which aren't ligatures.
Congress in Solt Unfortunately form of close e wasn't adopted by Unicode on that form, as in Solt decided.
See chart Unicode chart

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 The noto-source project has a huge problem: small letter Old Hungarian "z" u+10CEF, and its left-to-right pair "float", those aren't on the baseline.

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86
Please resolve glif-files' problems in googlefonts/noto-source project's src/NotoSansOldHungUI/NotoSansOldHungUI-Regular.ufo/glyphs directory, and publish it as ttf and otf files.
I made these files using FontLab, not by hand, and I can not understand, what are the problems.
Are there any tool for it?
This font follows the Unicode standard, the International standard : ISO/IEC 10646:2020 (costs 198 CHF, I have no rights to publish it), the Hungarian National Standard : MSZ ISO/IEC 10646:2018 (costs netto 55000 HUF ~ 138 USD, I have no rights to publish it).
The font implements all Old Hungarian symbols defined in standards listed above, and their left-to-right pairs, neither more and nor less.

[robihorvath]

@marekjez86 The final draft standard is describe ligatures as optional, and the list (reading from right to left) is not exhaustive. So this is a valid request for Old Hungarian fonts. The diacritics aren't required at all.

[rovasinfo]

Géza Ferenci historian, archeologist, museum director wrote, we must talking about historic Old Hungarian text until 1802. year.
Until 1802 in the Old Hungarian (or Sekler-Hungarian) texts weren't used ligatures "x", "qu", and weren't used letter "y" and "w".

It is not true. Check Bonyha-Moga alphabet dated 1629, the first recorded use for letters Q, X, Y.

On the other hand, there was change in the Hungarian alphabet in XX. century, where new sounds were introduced in the latin based alphabet, DZ, and DZS. These ligatures appeared in the rovas as well. W appeared at boy scouts at the same period.

[tamasbartos]

Géza Ferenci historian, archeologist, museum director wrote, we must talking about historic Old Hungarian text until 1802. year.
Until 1802 in the Old Hungarian (or Sekler-Hungarian) texts weren't used ligatures "x", "qu", and weren't used letter "y" and "w".

It is not true. Check Bonyha-Moga alphabet dated 1629, the first recorded use for letters Q, X, Y.

On the other hand, there was change in the Hungarian alphabet in XX. century, where new sounds were introduced in the latin based alphabet, DZ, and DZS. These ligatures appeared in the rovas as well. W appeared at boy scouts at the same period.

I checked Bonyha-Moga alphabet, and in Hungarian language didn't found informations about it first.. I found a book in English language from Gábor Hosszú. I don't think, that from hardly readable text duplicated Old Hungarian k is interpreteable as q. On the Hungarian wikipedia-page it is appeared as newest Old Hungarian "modern q form". The duplicated k changed to modern form of "q". How is it happened? The form of letter "x" was changed, too, if we believe Gábor Hosszú.

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 Bonyha--Moga alphabet in the book of Gábor Hosszú have computerized manipulations and other misleadings. There is an article about it:
Klára Friedrich's article

[rovasinfo]

@marekjez86 Bonyha--Moga alphabet in the book of Gábor Hosszú have computerized manipulations and other misleadings. There is an article about it:
Klára Friedrich's article

Gabor Hosszu reflection to the article can be found here. Most important remark is, that the inventor of the Y not only invented, but used this character in this script. On the other hand Klara Friedrich accepted the use of this character in 2009 by signing an agreement of the possible character set.

I think it is not correct to say "misleading" or "manipulated", Please check this research as well (in English): Heritage of Scribes ISBN 978 963 88 4374 6, p239-240 (LINK)

[rovasinfo]

About the agreement in Gödöllő, 2008. I put here this document, where Klára Friedrich also accepted the ligatures and X, Y, W, Q, Dz, Dzs letters. Even András Tisza, Miklós Szondi also attended this conference, and they did know about the agreement. Conference publication: ISBN 978-963-87967-5-2, p 258-259.

I hope, that the font will includes all these ligatures and X, Y, W, Q, Dz, Dzs letters as well, according to this agreement. This character set is much wider, all of them is based historical or contemporary usage.

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 Marek, Bonyha-Moga alphabet explanation is a tricky explanation:

That's true, that there is a letter "ks", but that we Hungarians in our spelling
write "ks", it is in English spelling looks like "ksh". The Englis "ks" is "ksz" in Hungarian spelling. In the other words what Gábor Hosszú wrote as ligature "ks", really in English spelling is "ksh" which isn't readable as "x".
Look at the form of Old Hungarian letter "sh" it in this document, too!
You will look, what I talked about, why the ligature "ks" is really looks like "ksh".

When in 2012 turned out, that Gábor Hosszú tried to smuggle Khazar letters into the standard, several documents were considered invalid at the Solt (read it as Sholt) city confernce.
The document about first standard
contains letters, for example old uee, that were not included into the final standard. The name of the standard was changed too.
The form of several ligatures is incorrect, hardly readable. For example form of ligature "ti" looks like "tí".

For my part, the debate is closed.

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 Sorry, when I wrote about "sh" , in the explanation, is it written as "s", but must to read as "sh".
When I wrote ligature "ti" and "tí", I thought about "it" and "ít".

[rovasinfo]

@tamasbartos > That's true, that there is a letter "ks", but that we Hungarians in our spelling

write "ks", it is in English spelling looks like "ksh". The Englis "ks" is "ksz" in Hungarian spelling. In the other words what Gábor Hosszú wrote as ligature "ks", really in English spelling is "ksh" which isn't readable as "x".

OMG, you have not read the article linked to the source. . SHR (Szekely-Hungarian Rovas) <š> pronounced /š/-t and /s/ as well, in this case KS means KSZ. This is an English article, so the international S means SZ in Hungarian of course. X readable as KSZ.
Please consult and read related linguistic sources before you want to complicate this issue.
Thanks for closing debate.

You have another misunderstanding as well: "When in 2012 turned out, that Gábor Hosszú tried to smuggle Khazar letters into the standard, several documents were considered invalid " You really do not understand the history of the Szekely Hungarian rovas, the so called "khazar" letters are part of a bigger scene. There was an opportunity to handle whole writing system family altogether on the SMP area, not only the so called Old Hungarian, which is a wrong name, see N4371 (L2/12-332). In the paleography, the term “Old Hungarian” means the medieval version of the Hungarian
orthography of the Latin script.
We have consulted experts at Unicode, so before you are arguing in a wrong context, you should understand not only standardization of this script, but the history as well.

This forum is not about the Unicode standardization issues, this forum is about to create font for this script with ligatures, there is an agreement from 2009 about all required ligatures and letters. That is the task, not debating about your knowledge of history of this script.

[tamasbartos]

@marekjez86 Marek! This explanation is must be clear for you:

@marekjez86 Marek, please answer to @rovasinfo , that characters, which aren't assigned to an Unicode codepoint, Noto-fonts project will assign those to a reserved area or not?
Old Hungarian chart