Matrix integration?

[Lurkki14]

I'm not sure if much work has been done on permanent messaging but integrating with Matrix could be a solution.

[Krzmbrzl]

I assume you mean this: https://matrix.org/

What would be the use-case of such a permanent messaging system? That's not really what I'd expect from a voice-client like Mumble (though that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be there - I'm just curious whether you have a specific use-case in mind)

[Kissaki]

I can see it as a possible extension, but not as a solution to permanent messaging.

The Mumble server should first support permanent messaging by itself before offering optional extensions to third party services.

That being said you can already use the Mumble server Ice messaging API callbacks to add a (newly written) connection service that maps Mumble messages and accounts to Matrix.

[Kissaki]

I’m not sure if we should keep this ticket open. It is a technically valid request or suggestion, but I do not see it as currently viable or constructive.

Even if it were accepted, I don’t think this is something for the Mumble server itself. It should probably be a connector service/script in mumble-scripts. We do not want to add every possible connector to any service in the central server software.

So I’m thinking if at all this should be a request in mumble-scripts.

If you think otherwise I may be willing to keep it open as a accumulating feedback feature request though.

[Mikaela]

Quoting my earlier comment from #1813 (comment):

I have been toying with the idea of making mumble into a prototype Matrix client.

I think it could easily be a step into wrong direction, assuming you mean Matrix.org. While 1:1 Riot calls are end-to-end-encrypted, conference calls depend on Jitsi Meet.

Matrix.org is currently also bad for privacy, while Mumble currently doesn't store chat logs, the reference homeserver implementation for Matrix, Synapse stores everything forever matrix-org/matrix-doc#447 including deleted messages. Multiple other privacy issues are listed at privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io#1049.

I don't know what you would do to Murmur, but I have understood Synapse to be very heavy especially if you have bigger rooms, while Murmur seems to run anywhere and there is µMurmur for even more limited systems.

I also see additional issue that Mumble doesn't currently support message removals, so in my opinion it would need that feature for Matrix support and then it would be back to Matrix not ever removing messages from the database.

[MayeulC]

Quoting my earlier comment from #1813 (comment):

Matrix.org is currently also bad for privacy, while Mumble currently doesn't store chat logs, the reference homeserver implementation for Matrix, Synapse stores everything forever matrix-org/matrix-doc#447 including deleted messages. Multiple other privacy issues are listed at privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io#1049.
I don't know what you would do to Murmur, but I have understood Synapse to be very heavy especially if you have bigger rooms, while Murmur seems to run anywhere and there is µMurmur for even more limited systems.

I also see additional issue that Mumble doesn't currently support message removals, so in my opinion it would need that feature for Matrix support and then it would be back to Matrix not ever removing messages from the database.

I just want to point out that this has been worked on for some time, and no longer accurate.

More improvements will come, but redacted messages are now garbage-collected. And of course, I would like to stress again that this is very synapse-specific, not an inherent issue with the Matrix protocol.
Of course, since the room history is something the users have access to if the room is configured as such, it remains in the database as long as users are using it. I guess you might want configurable message retention period (disappearing messages)?

But there are some people interested in this, so the best approach could be to showcase a proof-of-concept first :)

[Mikaela]

Any media uploads (matrix-org/synapse#1263) are still stored forever and I think the Synapse issue gets Matrix wide issue as soon as you get the first Synapse join the room, but I think Mumble doesn't support file uploads anyway.

I have previously today heard from an Synapse admin that it's painful to self-host and they would consider Modular.im over selfhosting and I can only hope that hosting a private Mumble server is going to stay painless and it can be done on even the cheapest VPSes.

But there are some people interested in this, so the best approach could be to showcase a proof-of-concept first :)

👍

[RokeJulianLockhart]

#3791 (comment)

When I saw this issue, I expected that it referred to routing VOIP over the Matrix protocol, which certainly appears to be supported (by https://element.io). Would such a suggestion be a separate issue?

[Krzmbrzl]

Such a suggestion would be rejected. If you want to use Matrix for voice, use Matrix. What would be the point of using Mumble then?

[RokeJulianLockhart]

#3791 (comment)

@Krzmbrzl, to use its integration with software that I want to use, per DarkPlacesEngine/DarkPlaces#61 (comment), and would allow those who do not know anything about Matrix to seamlessly communicate with practically anyone due to Matrix's bridge support.

[Krzmbrzl]

It seems to me that what you describe could be achieved by a Mumble-Matrix bridge. That would make more sense than rewriting a Mumble client to ditch the Mumble protocol and instead use the Matrix protocol 🤔

[RokeJulianLockhart]

#3791 (comment)

Certainly, @Krzmbrzl, that would be fine if it were to support every feature, but that means even more maintenance. How is that fundamentally better to just using the more interoperable standard?

Now that even NATO and the Bundeswehr have adopted Matrix, I can't imagine that anyone could say it's a fad, for instance. I can quite confidently say that it looks like a decent successor to RFC 6854 due to its interoperability, and a successor to XMPP and the many proprietary implementations of IMs.

[Krzmbrzl]

Yeah sure, it is likely a solid protocol. But it's not the Mumble protocol so if you want to use it, use a Matrix client.

[toastal]

@RokeJulianLockhart Matrix is not a successor to XMPP. XMPP is not dead & still does a lot of things in much more scalable fashion than the Matrix protocol since it doesn’t have to duplicate the entire history (data, metadata, attachment, joining & leaving) while having years of open governance & being built to be extended.