About the cost of research...

[KilloZapit]

I personally think one of the problems with this mod as it exists now is that researching things doesn't really require that big of an investment most of the time. It only requires one of the item you want to research and a very tiny amount of time.

I kinda think it should cost experience levels instead, maybe a number of levels based on the binary logarithm (reverse powers of two, since a lot off the EMC values of objects seem to be based on powers of two) and maybe a multiplier based on complexity (basically it costs more the more crafting steps removed from the raw materials it is, which should be easy to calculate during the EMC profiling when the results of crafting recipes are given EMC values).

That, I think, would make it so becoming proficient in transmutation is an investment. Anyone could dump items into a table and convert things to EMC, but only someone who spent the experience could use EMC from items to make things. I don't know if it would be more balanced exactly, but I think it might be more interesting.

But that's just my silly idea.

[mibblemerps]

I can certainly agree that researching items is far to easy, and an extra cost should be intergrated, be it experience points or something else.

[MercuriusXeno]

-trunc- for not reading the original OP's suggestion well enough in the first place, basically I suggested the same thing except at base 10. I'm a numpty.

[KilloZapit]

Yeah, my original idea was a diamond would cost 13 levels since 2^13 = 8192.

[MercuriusXeno]

Precisely the concept, yes, with the exception that powers of 2 seems high; they would cover all the bases, but I'm not sure I can agree with the scale. 13 levels is a "lot" for a diamond. I think for a harder/more costly experience it's a good option. Personally I'd prefer the log 10, it's a bit more rounded down. Base 2 would definitely work though, imo.

[UndeadZeratul]

maybe take a page from Spice of Life's book and let the user define a custom formula?

[MercuriusXeno]

+1, even though a base 2 isn't my personal pref, i can see a lot of maps/users wanting to define their own base/curve. Java has to deal with a "shortcoming" in that it only predefines 2 bases [as of java 7, unsure if 8 adds anything new]

Math.log is the equivalent of "e" (natural log) and math.log10 is for the other customary "default", base 10.

To arrive at a base other than 10 or e, one can use the identity:

log[b]x = (log[a]x) / (log[a]b)

It would be trivial to allow a configuration to handle a user-defined base [b], where [a] is simply one static log method (either java's default [e] or log10) and [x] is the EMC value of an item in question. The result would always be the log of the EMC at a user-configured base.

Thus, base 2 would be: Math.log10(emcValue) / Math.log10(2)

[KilloZapit]

I kinda think diamonds are on the high end of things you would want to learn myself, but yeah customization is a good idea.

[MercuriusXeno]

My main concern would be mod content adding things at such a high end of the vanilla spectrum that they produce exorbitant sigmas of experience costs when looked at as a whole.

For example, thing takes 8 diamond blocks. [Dark matter, for reference]
Thing2 takes 9 of thing1. [Just an example]
Thing3 takes 9 of thing2. [Expounding]

At a log2, Thing3 costs 25 experience levels. At a log of 10, it costs around 7.
As a point of reference, thing1 (dark matter) costs 19 levels. 5.77 at log10.

While one balance may be suitable for a given player, I find 19 levels to be steep for the knowledge to craft a single item. I think 5.77 is a bit more reasonable.

It can't be overstated, it really boils down to player preference.

[ghost]

We could always throw in a config option to let players and server owners set the log base to more easily balance out different modded items.

I know with something like Forbidden magic with the nether start block using something like the log2 would be almost evil.

[KilloZapit]

Is 25 levels really that much? I don't even farm and I tend to get that pretty easily after not too long.

[zauberparacelsus]

Bear in mind that experience levels are not equal in the amount of experience points. When paying 5 levels, for example, you wind up paying 105 experience points when you are at level 10, but when are at level 25, you wind up paying 360 experience points.

This behavior is something that can (for example) be exploited if you have OpenBlocks installed, where if you need to pay experience levels for something, you use a drain to dump all of your experience levels, and then punch the storage tank until you have the required amount of levels you need to pay. Doing this, you wind up paying much less experience than you would if you had just paid while you had all of your levels.

More info: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Experience#Leveling_up

[ghost]

So by that logic it would probably make more sense to have research cost experience points, as opposed to levels.

[KilloZapit]

I do use OpenBlocks myself... I always kinda figured experience costs were "cost enough experience to get to level x" though. The system seems kinda broken otherwise.

[MercuriusXeno]

Agree that points make more sense than levels. In general though, I feel like "MC Experience" is generic and underwhelming.

[KilloZapit]

That did give me the idea that maybe you should have an alchemy experience that unlocks more options for research as you research simple stuff, but that doesn't exactly encourage specialization. That's why I wanted to use MC experience, because you would have to choose more what you wanted to spend it on.

[MercuriusXeno]

Actually, I'm starting to bend on the idea of MC experience. It already has its own inherent self-policing "you can't get too strong at once" constraint and I can sort of get behind it. I didn't like it but I'm warming up to it, so let's not remove MC experience from consideration just yet - I was being too hasty.

I am now including our other discussion and attempting to incorporate it here and there. I feel like perhaps we need to move this to a unified format where we can see everything in one location, if such a thing exists.

[MercuriusXeno]

I'm going to make a case for MC experience here: I don't think the way it is set up is without merit.

A lot of people probably felt the same way I did about MC experience at first.
"Why is each level worth slightly more than the last, that's dumb. It encourages you to stay at low levels, where experience goes farther, and you're spending less of it to accomplish the same goals"

To this I say "exactly". It is self policing, in that you can't get too strong, too fast. It's the point of the mechanic to prevent you from stockpiling a massive amount of raw exp and dumping it into things, because the value of experience slowly diminishes. Also, it becomes progressively harder to accomplish effects which require higher levels of experience in a single sitting, even if you're starting at exp level 0. In other words, it sets out to accomplish two goals simultaneously, and in my opinion, it succeeds. People may not like it, but it sets out the goal it was designed to accomplish, I believe.

Guys, this is a callback to Dark Souls. For those of you who don't play Dark Souls, it's a grinding punishment mechanic. It is trying to encourage you to spend those points and keep moving, in a sort of roundabout way. Feel free to disagree here, but that's my take on the system.

Now take this and apply it to our uses
We could create a system where you spend MC experience and increase your threshold to transmute items in a variety of ways, so maybe while we're "sticking our hand in the pot" and robbing other mods of vanilla MC experience uses, we can fix this by rewarding experience for transmutation. In other words, to balance the scales, we need to make sure we aren't taking more than we're putting in.

Feel free to build off this.

[KilloZapit]

I think MC experience is a good system it's just not used for very much. Once you get the best armor you can with the best enchantments, that's it. I mean I guess you could make a lot of back up armor and stuff, but it still seemed to simple.

And I thought the "each level cost more then the last" was fairly obvious way of doing balance. But again, I always assumed when enchanting cost levels it actually just took the amount of experience to reach that level, and I am still not sure if that is true or not. Just taking x levels off your total makes it so you basically need to spend levels as soon as possible. I think I remember testing it at one point... Can't remember for sure the result.

[MercuriusXeno]

Edit: Nevermind, I see what you're saying. I responded incorrectly to your assumption. I can look, but I'm pretty sure it just shaves flat levels off the top.